Yesterday, I was vectored for nearly 30 minutes around/through the
Cleveland Class B airspace. The controller ended up taking me directly
over the airport and north to the lake and then west. As I was doing
this, I wondered what the lost comms procedure would be when you are on
a ATC vector for traffic. Seems the only logical action is to squawk
7600 and resume own navigation to your flight plan. Does that make sense?

-Sami

Makes sense. However, every vector must be for somewhere. IE:
"Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250 vectors for traffic,
you can expect direct choo choo" If you are not given a location where
the vector is for, it's fully appropriate to ask the controller for one.

Lynne wrote:
> Makes sense. However, every vector must be for somewhere. IE:
> "Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250 vectors for traffic,
> you can expect direct choo choo" If you are not given a location where
> the vector is for, it's fully appropriate to ask the controller for one.
>

To be unambiguous, through, it seems the instruction would have to
include a time, like "Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250
vectors for traffic, you can expect direct choo choo in 10 minutes,"
otherwise you do not know when to resume direct choo choo.

In article >,
"O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote:

> To be unambiguous, through, it seems the instruction would have to
> include a time, like "Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250
> vectors for traffic, you can expect direct choo choo in 10 minutes,"
> otherwise you do not know when to resume direct choo choo.

By the time the controller is done saying all that, you might already be a
hood ornament on the traffic he was trying to vector you around.

Perhaps, though my experience is that vectors are given WELL in advance
of any possible collision. In my case, I believe they were vectoring to
keep me out of approach paths into Cleveland.

There is still a question of how lost comms is handled in this situation.



Roy Smith wrote:

> In article >,
> "O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote:
>
>
>>To be unambiguous, through, it seems the instruction would have to
>>include a time, like "Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250
>>vectors for traffic, you can expect direct choo choo in 10 minutes,"
>>otherwise you do not know when to resume direct choo choo.
>
>
> By the time the controller is done saying all that, you might already be a
> hood ornament on the traffic he was trying to vector you around.

"O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote:
> Perhaps, though my experience is that vectors are given WELL in advance
> of any possible collision.

Of course. I was being facetious (at least a little bit). There are times
around New York when the controller literally is giving back to back
vectors and there just isn't time for niceties like telling you where
you're headed, but they are the exception.

> In my case, I believe they were vectoring to
> keep me out of approach paths into Cleveland.
>
> There is still a question of how lost comms is handled in this situation.

Step 1, figure out if terrain is an issue. If it is, do whatever you need
to do to avoid terrain.

Step 2, figure out if fuel is an issue. If it is, see step 1 above.

If neither of the above apply, you're in an abnormal situation, but not an
emergency (it would be an emergency if terrain or fuel was a problem).
You've got time to work the problem. Assume they're watching you on radar
and will move any traffic around you.

See if you can re-establish comm. Try a different frequency. My GPS has a
wonderful "Nearest ARTCC" feature. I've used that to re-establish comm
when I lost touch with Approach. Try FSS. Try 121.5. Try calling
1-800-wx-brief on your cell phone. But, I'm weaseling here. Let's assume
you've done all that stuff and you really are left with no way to
communicate, but still have navigation capability. Further assume that
you're in IMC (i.e. can't weasel out of the problem by just landing VFR at
a convenient uncontrolled field).

The rule basicly says to use, in order, cleared, expected, filed. Your
current clearance is an open-ended vector to nowhere, and you haven't been
given anything to expect. At some point you need to abandon the vector and
return to your previously cleared route. The heart of the question is
when, and where do you go when you do decide to abandon the vector.

Unfortunately, there's no good answer to that. You (the PIC) know more
about the exact situation you're in at the moment than we (the folks who
hang out on r.a.ifr) do. Squawk 7600. Pick a reasonable way to get back
on your previously cleared route, and go for it.

Lynne wrote:
> Makes sense. However, every vector must be for somewhere. IE:
> "Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250 vectors for traffic,
> you can expect direct choo choo" If you are not given a location where
> the vector is for, it's fully appropriate to ask the controller for one.

No, it's not. You must be given a reason for a vector the first time.
Every subsequent vector is assumed to be for the same reason. Also
there's no requirement to throw in the "expect direct xxx"
>

> The rule basicly says to use, in order, cleared, expected, filed.

I like this short concise approach. My method of teaching this to IFR
students was to "Do what is expected and what makes sense" Remember your
primary instructor pounding into your head that no matter what happens the
first thing you are going to do is "fly the airplane"? That's exactly what
you're going to do if you're IFR on vectors for traffic with no expect
further clearance and loose your comms. You can squak 7600 so they can keep
a better eye on you, but your primary concern is YOU, not them. They will
take care of everybody else, your job is to take care of you.

To think about Sami's situation, he was vetored for traffic directly over
Cleveland's airport, why? There probably aren't any planes directly over
the airport.

Then north to the lake, why? Maybe they were routing approaches and
departures in and out on east and west headings?

Then west, why? Maybe to get him back on his original flight path. Makes
sense.

So if comms fail after you're given those vectors, do what you're cleared
for then do what's expected. If no further clearance time was given, do
what's expected and what makes sense. How much would it hurt to continue
north over the lake before turning west? Look at your map, would it
interfere with anybody else? If not, keep going north until you feel
confident that it's time to turn west. If so, then turn west before it's
somebody elses problem.

The FAA tries to make a rule with a list of "what ifs" for every occasion.
What is often more proper is to simply use common sense and sometimes in
doing so we actually end up complying with the regs by accident.

Jim

"Lynne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Makes sense. However, every vector must be for somewhere. IE:
> "Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250 vectors for traffic,
> you can expect direct choo choo" If you are not given a location where
> the vector is for, it's fully appropriate to ask the controller for one.
>

Every vector must be for someTHING, not necessarily someWHERE. When
initiating a vector the controller must advise the pilot of the purpose.
The vector may me for traffic or for spacing.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> Every vector must be for someTHING, not necessarily someWHERE. When
> initiating a vector the controller must advise the pilot of the purpose.
> The vector may me for traffic or for spacing.

correct. if they say "vectors for traffic" and you lose comm,
squawk 7600 and then fly direct to your next fix as that is
your clearance. if they
say "fly heading 060" (but not for traffic), it is to
intercept an approach course or victor/jet airway
but it is for something. If they are just handing out vectors
to nowhere just to vector you around the Class B, well
do as they say in thee book. Do as cleared (but with no
further explanation) -> expected (they didn't say anything) ->
filed. Fly to the next fix even if it is behind you and then
continue on as filed. If they ask you then they can also listen
to the tapes and they should 'expect' a better clearance from
their controllers.

Gerald

"G. Sylvester" > wrote:
> Fly to the next fix even if it is behind you and then
> continue on as filed.

Other than an initial departure heading (i.e. "fly runway heading", or
something like that), I'm having trouble thinking of a situation where the
next fix would be behind you. If they've already vectored you past a fix
in your initial clearance, I'd skip it and go to the next one.

But, like I've said before, it's easy to sit here on my comfy living room
couch and hypothesize about what the right thing to do is. When it happens
to you, you'll be in the best position to figure out what makes the most
sense given the situation.

"G. Sylvester" > wrote in message
m...
>
> correct. if they say "vectors for traffic" and you lose comm,
> squawk 7600 and then fly direct to your next fix as that is
> your clearance. if they
> say "fly heading 060" (but not for traffic), it is to
> intercept an approach course or victor/jet airway
> but it is for something. If they are just handing out vectors
> to nowhere just to vector you around the Class B, well
> do as they say in thee book. Do as cleared (but with no
> further explanation) -> expected (they didn't say anything) ->
> filed. Fly to the next fix even if it is behind you and then
> continue on as filed. If they ask you then they can also listen
> to the tapes and they should 'expect' a better clearance from
> their controllers.
>

How can the next fix be behind you? Are you thinking of a situation where
the vectors have turned you completely around?

The last time I flew through the Cleveland Class B I was IMC eastbound
via DJB to Youngstown. I got vectored out over Lake Erie before I got
to Dryer, so in that sense my "next fix" would be "behind me". But I
can't imagine why would go back to DJB, which is southwest of Hopkins.
My inclination would be to stay with the vector for another 5-10
minutes, until I could make a single turn and overfly Burke airport on
the assumption that that would keep me at least out of Burke traffic
and then direct YNG.

paul kgyy wrote:

> The last time I flew through the Cleveland Class B I was IMC eastbound
> via DJB to Youngstown. I got vectored out over Lake Erie before I got
> to Dryer, so in that sense my "next fix" would be "behind me".

exactly. Flying out of SQL, you get RV OAK V244 ECA. Basically
they vector you onto V244. Often they just given you a heading
to fly right after departure with no additional "expect V244."
So you are still on RV to OAK. Often they say "fly heading
XXX and intercept V244" after you are already past OAK.
Technically you are still be in RV to OAK and therefore
should fly it. In practice this might one of those situations
where you are 3nm to V244 vs. 10 to OAK. They would probably
expect you to go to V244 rather than fly the 20 nm round
trip back to your initial lost comm point.

This is kind of like holding until your filed enroute time /arrival
time. If you hold you tie up all the airspace so even though they
say hold all controllers say "just land ASAP."

Gerald

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Lynne" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Makes sense. However, every vector must be for somewhere. IE:
> > "Gulfstream zero golf alpha, turn left heading 250 vectors for traffic,
> > you can expect direct choo choo" If you are not given a location where
> > the vector is for, it's fully appropriate to ask the controller for one.
> >
>
> Every vector must be for someTHING, not necessarily someWHERE. When
> initiating a vector the controller must advise the pilot of the purpose.
> The vector may me for traffic or for spacing.

Flying into the LA basin many years ago talking to SoCal Appch to Orange
County Apt I was vectored for about half an hour before I got vectors to fly
the approach. It was not clear what really was going on (most of it was in
IMC) or where I was going until the final approach clearance.